rgarjr
Mar 22, 09:17 PM
What is there to update on the classic besides capacity?
lots, Bluetooth, WIFI (for internet radio), design..
Here's my classic mockup
http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=277273&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1300734199
lots, Bluetooth, WIFI (for internet radio), design..
Here's my classic mockup
http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=277273&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1300734199
Bodypainter
May 3, 04:03 AM
oh guys, don't you understand what is going on here?
the iPhone and iPad is very sucessful therefore apple wants to bring all the user interface elements to the Mac too. and this actually makes sense. the only problem: we are used to the Mac os and don't want to give up our habits.
but there is no way around: it's time to melt iOS and Mac OS x. and apple is going to bring so many things to the os x that will confuse so many people. they have to solve so many problems like deletion of programs or the fullscreen dilemma.
I am very sure that they want the Mac os to behave like iOS. but iOS is based on the home screen and this terrible multitasking bar (double-click on home button) no trashcan (oho!) and no finder.
but there is also a good side to it. maybe the iOS is getting the "widget screen" too, because if apple is totally logical, the have to introduce this too (and mission control).
(written on an iPad)
the iPhone and iPad is very sucessful therefore apple wants to bring all the user interface elements to the Mac too. and this actually makes sense. the only problem: we are used to the Mac os and don't want to give up our habits.
but there is no way around: it's time to melt iOS and Mac OS x. and apple is going to bring so many things to the os x that will confuse so many people. they have to solve so many problems like deletion of programs or the fullscreen dilemma.
I am very sure that they want the Mac os to behave like iOS. but iOS is based on the home screen and this terrible multitasking bar (double-click on home button) no trashcan (oho!) and no finder.
but there is also a good side to it. maybe the iOS is getting the "widget screen" too, because if apple is totally logical, the have to introduce this too (and mission control).
(written on an iPad)
Krizoitz
Mar 20, 02:46 PM
People (even in Japan) say Macs are too expensive ! Ive been to Akihabara in Tokyo and Den den Town in Osaka ! Ive lived in Japan for 5 years. Yes, the Ipod has been popular in Japan BUT a hell of alot more people buy IBMs here eg: Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony.
The difference is that Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony are all Japanese companies. They don't have to pay the import taxes, and Japanese industries are a lot more protected in terms of foreign competition than American companies are because the govt is allowed alot more connection to them. Thats just the way it is.
Its similar to Europe and Airbus, because Airbus is a european company the gov'ts over there give them support and tax breaks and such. Boeing can't get that same kind of subsidization because of U.S. laws and policies. I think unfair trade laws are one of the US's biggest problems. But thats a topic for another forum.
The point is made in Japan (or atleast a company from Japan) will have cheaper products that an American based company.
The difference is that Toshiba, Hitachi and Sony are all Japanese companies. They don't have to pay the import taxes, and Japanese industries are a lot more protected in terms of foreign competition than American companies are because the govt is allowed alot more connection to them. Thats just the way it is.
Its similar to Europe and Airbus, because Airbus is a european company the gov'ts over there give them support and tax breaks and such. Boeing can't get that same kind of subsidization because of U.S. laws and policies. I think unfair trade laws are one of the US's biggest problems. But thats a topic for another forum.
The point is made in Japan (or atleast a company from Japan) will have cheaper products that an American based company.
TerryJ
Jul 14, 11:53 AM
So, easily seen. The employ the exact same codecs.
They CAN use the same codecs. The problem on the BD side is that... all of the Sony discs (and other studios so far) use MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio.
Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony deck) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats. They can only do same DD and DTS as old DVDs. HD DVD decks can decode DD+ and Dolby TruHD (TruHD can only be decoded to stereo in the current decks, though, unfortunately.) Also, the software needs to have audio encoded in DD+ and Dolby TruHD. All HD DVD discs have at least DD+. No BDs have DD+.
If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.
[Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.]
That's the trick. Talking pure specs, on paper, before anything was ever released, and BD seemed like it should be equal or better. Reality... I mean actual implementation, of course, is a different matter.
-Terry
They CAN use the same codecs. The problem on the BD side is that... all of the Sony discs (and other studios so far) use MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio.
Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony deck) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats. They can only do same DD and DTS as old DVDs. HD DVD decks can decode DD+ and Dolby TruHD (TruHD can only be decoded to stereo in the current decks, though, unfortunately.) Also, the software needs to have audio encoded in DD+ and Dolby TruHD. All HD DVD discs have at least DD+. No BDs have DD+.
If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.
[Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.]
That's the trick. Talking pure specs, on paper, before anything was ever released, and BD seemed like it should be equal or better. Reality... I mean actual implementation, of course, is a different matter.
-Terry
havenhamilton
Jun 22, 11:34 PM
To me this seems like the desktop would look a lot like the iOS with "apps" which you could use like a touch screen. when you would actually go into apps it would switch back to the regular style of mouse and keyboard. it makes sense that in order to make the iOS more complex and powerful they would make osx simpler and more like the iOS. the simplicity of the iOS with the power of osx.
ghostface147
Apr 2, 08:27 PM
nice...
ZebraineZ
Jun 22, 03:37 PM
I wouldn't mind an iOS-type OS on an iMac as long as it had some more features of a full-fledged desktop OS. As in:
-Multiple Users
-Printing
-Some kind of file system
-More apps of a creative side (ie movie editing, word processing, programming, etc.) instead of just media consuming apps
Note: this list is not exhaustive; there are many more features I'd like that I just can't think of at the moment.
Plus, some games/apps will need to be done, specifically those that need the accelerometers. I don't think people would want to swing around a 20/30 pound computer. But that would be a good way to make more money; people keep breaking them so they'll have to pay for repairs/new ones.
I doubt 10.7 will be such an overhaul. Probably more like Mac OS X 11.0 or a totally new naming scheme.
You just described a touchless OS X. It does exactly that...
-Multiple Users
-Printing
-Some kind of file system
-More apps of a creative side (ie movie editing, word processing, programming, etc.) instead of just media consuming apps
Note: this list is not exhaustive; there are many more features I'd like that I just can't think of at the moment.
Plus, some games/apps will need to be done, specifically those that need the accelerometers. I don't think people would want to swing around a 20/30 pound computer. But that would be a good way to make more money; people keep breaking them so they'll have to pay for repairs/new ones.
I doubt 10.7 will be such an overhaul. Probably more like Mac OS X 11.0 or a totally new naming scheme.
You just described a touchless OS X. It does exactly that...
TheBobcat
Nov 29, 03:32 PM
I don't know, I would have to think Apple has some ace up its sleeve with iTV, since streaming music and video to televisions really isn't all that new or interesting. Tivo does it, Xbox does it, Media Center PC's do it. Apple has to be bringing something pretty compelling and different to the table. I know that their software experience will be superior than to anything current, but I would hope that Apple can offer significantly more reason to buy one than what we've seen offered in the same sector.
millerrh
Oct 23, 04:58 PM
I sure hope DanCosich's post is true! I just had my 12" Powerbook stolen from me last week and my insurance company is paying for an equal replacement or if one isn't available, the next thing up. Looks like a 15" MBP is the next thing up! Going from a 1.33GHz G4 to a C2D MBP is just a plain silly upgrade. I'm out $1000 from a deductible, but that's quite the upgrade for $1000. I'd say it was worth the theft except the fact that my car got busted up as well.
*crosses fingers*
*crosses fingers*
localghost
Nov 15, 11:39 AM
is there a chance that they replace the two dual core xenon with only one quad core xenon in the mac pro and drop the price? speedwise it should be about the same and it should definately be cheaper to make.
interesting question, but afaik two different chips would perform better (at the same ghz).
any chance that there will be an update of the mac pro before 2007?
if so, will the current models get more ram, or a different gpu or a lower price?
i'd appreciate any educated guesses since i have to buy in 2006 for tax reasons.
interesting question, but afaik two different chips would perform better (at the same ghz).
any chance that there will be an update of the mac pro before 2007?
if so, will the current models get more ram, or a different gpu or a lower price?
i'd appreciate any educated guesses since i have to buy in 2006 for tax reasons.
diamond.g
Mar 24, 03:28 PM
Can anyone explain the nVidia hate?
I, for one, miss my old GeForce 8800.
I have a Radeon HD 5770 now, and there are these little annoyances. For instance, when I run my bootcamp partition inside VMWare, the AMD driver software starts complaining. The GeForce didn't give a damn. Speaking of which, I had to install the .Net framework to install the AMD drivers. Kinda cheap. And every now and then I get a slight flicker in the screen. To be honest, I'm not sure if that's the Radeon, but I've never had it before.
Don't get me wrong, the card is performing superbly overall. But the driver side still needs some polish. (And that's a complaint I've been hearing for ages!)
The .Net framework is for the CCC (Catalyst Control Center). I am pretty sure you can still get the drivers and not dl the CCC.
Why should you care about the IGP in your 2010 15" MBP? You have a discrete GPU(NVIDIA 330M) alongside it that it should automatically switch to while under heavy load.
It isn't load based... It is API based. But you knew that...
I, for one, miss my old GeForce 8800.
I have a Radeon HD 5770 now, and there are these little annoyances. For instance, when I run my bootcamp partition inside VMWare, the AMD driver software starts complaining. The GeForce didn't give a damn. Speaking of which, I had to install the .Net framework to install the AMD drivers. Kinda cheap. And every now and then I get a slight flicker in the screen. To be honest, I'm not sure if that's the Radeon, but I've never had it before.
Don't get me wrong, the card is performing superbly overall. But the driver side still needs some polish. (And that's a complaint I've been hearing for ages!)
The .Net framework is for the CCC (Catalyst Control Center). I am pretty sure you can still get the drivers and not dl the CCC.
Why should you care about the IGP in your 2010 15" MBP? You have a discrete GPU(NVIDIA 330M) alongside it that it should automatically switch to while under heavy load.
It isn't load based... It is API based. But you knew that...
Dynamyk
Feb 22, 09:20 AM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1751007/setup03.JPG
Where can I get that date time thingy for my iPad!
Where can I get that date time thingy for my iPad!
zap2
Apr 19, 11:49 AM
Awesome. :)
And please, dear God, let there be new Minis - I've been checking MacRumors multiple times per day lately hoping for any Mini rumors.
Seriously, if I were to upgrade my current Mini(which is from early 2006) with a new CPU, I wouldn't be that far behind the current Mini is CPU performance(of course the GPU would still smoke mine.
Thats not a common event in Apple's line up. Although it speaks nicely about Intel supporting sockets for a decent amount of time.
But thunderbolt, sandy bridge and the new design(which makes some stuff easier, some harder for me when it comes to upgrade, but looks so sexy!) make an upgrade to the new Mini a no brainer for me. Heck even the CPU will be a great step up from the Intel GMA 950!
And please, dear God, let there be new Minis - I've been checking MacRumors multiple times per day lately hoping for any Mini rumors.
Seriously, if I were to upgrade my current Mini(which is from early 2006) with a new CPU, I wouldn't be that far behind the current Mini is CPU performance(of course the GPU would still smoke mine.
Thats not a common event in Apple's line up. Although it speaks nicely about Intel supporting sockets for a decent amount of time.
But thunderbolt, sandy bridge and the new design(which makes some stuff easier, some harder for me when it comes to upgrade, but looks so sexy!) make an upgrade to the new Mini a no brainer for me. Heck even the CPU will be a great step up from the Intel GMA 950!
RaceTripper
Jan 10, 10:59 AM
I love the german-colored motorsport emblem!
Gorgeous 1-er!
I cannot believe BMW is still putting MYRTLE WOOD in these cars. :pThe 1-series M Coupe (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254504/) has been debuted at Detroit Auto Show. I love the Alcantara dash treatment. I hope to get one later (wife gets a new car first).
Gorgeous 1-er!
I cannot believe BMW is still putting MYRTLE WOOD in these cars. :pThe 1-series M Coupe (http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254504/) has been debuted at Detroit Auto Show. I love the Alcantara dash treatment. I hope to get one later (wife gets a new car first).
lyzardking
Dec 29, 03:23 PM
Sorry you couldn't have stayed in 4th place for longer lyzardking... but at least you can claim you were there! :D And you are getting more points for the team!
Doesn't look like I'll be fifth for that long (looking over a shoulder at a quickly approaching twoodcc)
:cool:
Doesn't look like I'll be fifth for that long (looking over a shoulder at a quickly approaching twoodcc)
:cool:
heffemonkeyman
Sep 7, 12:59 PM
On my lunch break at work, I just downloaded a couple of HD trailers, both 2min30sec in length; 1 at 480p and the other at 720p. My set up is an 3.0Ghz Pentium D, 1G ram, 256K Nvidia Gforce 6800, 20" Dell Digital LCD.
I could tell no difference in file quality. The problem lies in download time. Both files average dl speed was 150KBps. Thats 1.2Mbps if my math is right. The 420p file took 4:28 to dl, translating to 3:34:24 for a 2hr movie. For 720p, it took 12:39, meaning a full movie would take 9:28:45.
I know my cable provider offers up to 4Mbps downlaods, for about $120/month. And thats before the cable servise itself. Even then its not dedicated. Most people with cable will opt for their providers basic service ,like $40 - 50/month for 500-600kbps, or 1/2 as fast as my test. The movies would take twice as long to dl. 19hrs to downlaod will not fly. 7hrs may not either.
If the compression works to get a DVD quality movie down to 1G, then it could be downloaded in about 1h50mim, nearly realtime at work, or 3h40min at home. At work, I would only need maybe a 15min buffer before I start watching, and not catch up to the dl. But at home, I would need about 1h40min buffer. Maybe this is acceptable to some, but if I can walk to Wal-mart or Blockbuster and back in that time, then what's the consumer advantage beyond the novelty?
I'm sure apple engineers can do these same napkin calculations. There would have to be some alternative to the straight dl. Maybe a torrent of some kind built into iTunes 7. I don't know. Just thinking.
This is a good test, but your connection is not fast enough for this to be viable. If your getting only getting 1.2mbps, that not going to cut it.
Bandwith is a huge issue. In my area, Seattle, I can get Comcast cable for about $50/mo and I get 6-8mbps solid download. So I can stream anything that is encoded at 6-8mbps just fine. The 720p trailers are about 4-8mbps, so it works for me.
I know not everyone can get that kind of bandwidth/price, but they will soon. I think this is where Apple is going, but it's not going to work for everyone. At least not right away. But maybe enough to be profitable?
I could tell no difference in file quality. The problem lies in download time. Both files average dl speed was 150KBps. Thats 1.2Mbps if my math is right. The 420p file took 4:28 to dl, translating to 3:34:24 for a 2hr movie. For 720p, it took 12:39, meaning a full movie would take 9:28:45.
I know my cable provider offers up to 4Mbps downlaods, for about $120/month. And thats before the cable servise itself. Even then its not dedicated. Most people with cable will opt for their providers basic service ,like $40 - 50/month for 500-600kbps, or 1/2 as fast as my test. The movies would take twice as long to dl. 19hrs to downlaod will not fly. 7hrs may not either.
If the compression works to get a DVD quality movie down to 1G, then it could be downloaded in about 1h50mim, nearly realtime at work, or 3h40min at home. At work, I would only need maybe a 15min buffer before I start watching, and not catch up to the dl. But at home, I would need about 1h40min buffer. Maybe this is acceptable to some, but if I can walk to Wal-mart or Blockbuster and back in that time, then what's the consumer advantage beyond the novelty?
I'm sure apple engineers can do these same napkin calculations. There would have to be some alternative to the straight dl. Maybe a torrent of some kind built into iTunes 7. I don't know. Just thinking.
This is a good test, but your connection is not fast enough for this to be viable. If your getting only getting 1.2mbps, that not going to cut it.
Bandwith is a huge issue. In my area, Seattle, I can get Comcast cable for about $50/mo and I get 6-8mbps solid download. So I can stream anything that is encoded at 6-8mbps just fine. The 720p trailers are about 4-8mbps, so it works for me.
I know not everyone can get that kind of bandwidth/price, but they will soon. I think this is where Apple is going, but it's not going to work for everyone. At least not right away. But maybe enough to be profitable?
apb3
Aug 16, 01:23 PM
It wouldn't necessarily require ANY extra DRM, they'd just build it in to the update of the ipod and itunes software. Buy a song directly on the iPod, it only gets transferred to computers with your itunes shopping account. That's pretty much how it works already.
Build what into the update?? more Digital rights management... And we go back to Apple's one-way iTunes to iPod transfer selling point to music labels. Once the floodgates to two-way transfer are opened officially, bye bye contracts with major lables and forget about movies.
Build what into the update?? more Digital rights management... And we go back to Apple's one-way iTunes to iPod transfer selling point to music labels. Once the floodgates to two-way transfer are opened officially, bye bye contracts with major lables and forget about movies.
JosiahPB
Jul 18, 08:24 AM
Unless paying for movies with a 320x240 resolution with stereo sound is your thing....
chrisgeleven
Nov 29, 02:38 PM
You know what I would like with iTV?
Live content.
Think about it for a moment. I think everyone hates how expensive cable TV is. I am paying $45 per month just for 50 channels or so, with maybe 10 of those I actually watch (the networks, MSNBC, NESN, FSNE, ESPN, and a few other random ones).
Apple has the TV Shows issue fixed, thanks to $1.99 per show on iTunes and season passes.
However, live content is the big issue. I would love to ditch my cable tv subscription and go soley iTV. But I like to watch sports, especially baseball and football. Also you need TV for news events, especially breaking news. iTV and iTunes does not (yet) allow you to watch live streaming content.
If Apple could somehow strike a deal to cover sports and other live content such as news...that just really opens the door. Major League Baseball already does it with MLB.TV, except it is browser based. Imagine the same thing, but on iTV!?!?
Do that, and I would seriously cancel my cable tv subscription and go a la carte with iTunes. I spend roughly $540 a year on my 50 channels of cable TV, of which I at most watch 10 channels. I would much rather spend say $270 (half of the $540) on the 5 or so shows I watch, plus season passes for my local baseball and football teams, and the news channel of my choice.
That is where iTV could become a real winner.
Live content.
Think about it for a moment. I think everyone hates how expensive cable TV is. I am paying $45 per month just for 50 channels or so, with maybe 10 of those I actually watch (the networks, MSNBC, NESN, FSNE, ESPN, and a few other random ones).
Apple has the TV Shows issue fixed, thanks to $1.99 per show on iTunes and season passes.
However, live content is the big issue. I would love to ditch my cable tv subscription and go soley iTV. But I like to watch sports, especially baseball and football. Also you need TV for news events, especially breaking news. iTV and iTunes does not (yet) allow you to watch live streaming content.
If Apple could somehow strike a deal to cover sports and other live content such as news...that just really opens the door. Major League Baseball already does it with MLB.TV, except it is browser based. Imagine the same thing, but on iTV!?!?
Do that, and I would seriously cancel my cable tv subscription and go a la carte with iTunes. I spend roughly $540 a year on my 50 channels of cable TV, of which I at most watch 10 channels. I would much rather spend say $270 (half of the $540) on the 5 or so shows I watch, plus season passes for my local baseball and football teams, and the news channel of my choice.
That is where iTV could become a real winner.
MacVault
Aug 7, 06:25 AM
I'm hoping that Leopard is more of an increment than the last couple of OS X releases were. I'd still rather use Tiger than any other OS, but Apple really needs to address its UI inconsistencies and usability issues. For example, I think that printing and font management in OS X are much more complicated than they need to be...
In addition to printing and font management, how bout adding to the list networking access. The way one accesses networks in Windows seems much more straight forward, consistent, clean and intuitive in Windows XP than it does in OS X. That's my oppinion anyway. Maybe that's just me. Anyone else agree???
In addition to printing and font management, how bout adding to the list networking access. The way one accesses networks in Windows seems much more straight forward, consistent, clean and intuitive in Windows XP than it does in OS X. That's my oppinion anyway. Maybe that's just me. Anyone else agree???
Spyriadon
Apr 19, 12:10 PM
Wow....a MAC rumor.
My money is sat here waiting to be spent.
Next week looks good to me =].
My money is sat here waiting to be spent.
Next week looks good to me =].
kjr39
Oct 23, 06:52 AM
Sigh.
Okay fine, I guess I'll buy one of these new fancy MBP with a C2D processor instead of continuing to wait for the 12" G5 PB...
Okay fine, I guess I'll buy one of these new fancy MBP with a C2D processor instead of continuing to wait for the 12" G5 PB...
kntgsp
Sep 14, 11:13 AM
Interesting. Instead of jailbreaking, know what I do? I copy my files onto my iOS devices as a backup. No problem. I have several GB of data on both my iPod touch and my iPad.
I have yet to find a single Windows or Linux computer at work that will allow me to simply drag and drop some files onto the device as if it were a mounted drive like any other USB stick or Android/Symbian phone.
It's why the girlfriend has the iPhone4 and I am using Android at the moment (which I am growing to detest for lack of decent VNC options)
I have yet to find a single Windows or Linux computer at work that will allow me to simply drag and drop some files onto the device as if it were a mounted drive like any other USB stick or Android/Symbian phone.
It's why the girlfriend has the iPhone4 and I am using Android at the moment (which I am growing to detest for lack of decent VNC options)
bommai
Jul 18, 05:48 PM
I rented an HD-DVD from netflix (Van Helsing) and it wouldn't play on my Mac. I thought that the current version of DVD player would let you play these discs but all I could find through Apple tech support is that DVD player will let you play DVD Studio Pro burnt HD discs.
Or am I doing something wrong?
I think you are confusing the term HD in various context.
A movie file (computer file) can be in HD resolution (1280x720 or 1920x1080) encoded in a variety of formats (MPEG2, MPEG4-H.264 aka AVC, Microsoft VC-1).
If the non-DRM'd file is available on your computer, you can view them using a variety of playback software such as Quicktime, Windows Media Player, VLC player, etc.
However, you rented HD-DVD. This is a physical media that requires a blu-laser based HD-DVD player to play it on. Currently only Toshiba sells such a player as a standalone player HD-A1 I believe. They also have a high-end laptop with this player built-in. So, you need a HD-DVD readable drive to playback the HD-DVD disc you rented from Netflix.
What Apple is talking about is authoring HD disks. You can make HD movies using Final Cut Pro or even iMovie by importing a HD movie (probably in HDV format). Then create a DVD image of it that is capable of HD. I have not used this feature - so I don't know the details.
I would have preferred a way to burn H.264 based HD movies into a standard DVD (red laser based single or dual layer DVD) and play it back on a low cost player that can do H.264 decoding (including HD resolution). I guess a Mac Mini is one such beast ;-)
Or am I doing something wrong?
I think you are confusing the term HD in various context.
A movie file (computer file) can be in HD resolution (1280x720 or 1920x1080) encoded in a variety of formats (MPEG2, MPEG4-H.264 aka AVC, Microsoft VC-1).
If the non-DRM'd file is available on your computer, you can view them using a variety of playback software such as Quicktime, Windows Media Player, VLC player, etc.
However, you rented HD-DVD. This is a physical media that requires a blu-laser based HD-DVD player to play it on. Currently only Toshiba sells such a player as a standalone player HD-A1 I believe. They also have a high-end laptop with this player built-in. So, you need a HD-DVD readable drive to playback the HD-DVD disc you rented from Netflix.
What Apple is talking about is authoring HD disks. You can make HD movies using Final Cut Pro or even iMovie by importing a HD movie (probably in HDV format). Then create a DVD image of it that is capable of HD. I have not used this feature - so I don't know the details.
I would have preferred a way to burn H.264 based HD movies into a standard DVD (red laser based single or dual layer DVD) and play it back on a low cost player that can do H.264 decoding (including HD resolution). I guess a Mac Mini is one such beast ;-)